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When we get asked about travel cards that are simple to use, one card always comes to mind—The Capital One Venture Rewards Credit Card. The Venture Rewards Card can be an easy-to-use card since it earns at least 2x miles on every purchase. Earn 5x miles on hotels and rental cars booked through Capital One Travel. I’ve personally held the Capital One Venture in my wallet for years, and have used its points to travel domestically and internationally.
Along with the card’s flexibility, cardholders can enjoy the travel partners available to Capital One. There’s an awesome Capital One Venture 75,000 miles bonus (after spending $4,000 on purchases in the first 3 months of account opening), TSA PreCheck or Global Entry fee credit, and a $95 annual fee. It’s one of the most popular travel credit cards for a reason. The 75k point bonus is one of the largest ever offered publicly on the Capital One Venture.
Learn more about the 75,000 bonus miles, worth $750 in travel: Capital One Venture Rewards Credit Card
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Terms apply to American Express benefits and offers. Enrollment may be required for select American Express benefits and offers. Visit americanexpress.com to learn more.
Capital One Venture Card Review 2023
The Capital One Venture Rewards Credit Card is often listed as one of the best travel credit cards you can have in your wallet, partly because it’s great for everyday spending. You don’t have to worry about activating rotating special categories or intentional spending on select categories. It has flexibility but is also easy to use.
Let’s break down the perks and see how it compares to other cards (like the Chase Sapphire Preferred® Card) to help you decide if this is the card for you.
Capital One Venture Bonus
Enjoy a one-time bonus of 75,000 miles once you spend $4,000 on purchases within 3 months from account opening, equal to $750 in travel, with the Capital One Venture Rewards Credit Card. The 75k bonus on the Capital One Venture card is an awesome opportunity to earn a lot of valuable rewards for travel.
Earn Miles on Purchases with Capital One Venture
Do you like the thought of earning 2x miles for every $1 spent, regardless of the purchase type? Having a flat-rate reward miles program makes it easy to know how many miles you will earn with each person. It’s the same amount every time. A 2% flat rewards rate is pretty good as most flexible travel rewards cards in this annual fee range either have a similar double miles flat-rate payout or offer double miles on the travel and dining.
However, earn 5X miles on hotels and rental cars booked through Capital One Travel. Pretty sweet, eh?
Honestly, the double miles on purchases are probably the best reason to own the Capital One Venture Credit Card. Very few rewards credit cards offer bonus miles for everyday spending. This helps casual travelers quickly earn miles to pay for their occasional trips.
Redeem Miles for Travel Statement Credits
Redeeming your Venture miles is easy. But, other flexible travel credit cards have more valuable redemption options if you are willing to make some tradeoffs in terms of smaller purchase rewards.
With the Capital One Venture, each mile is worth 1 cent each (10,000 miles=$100) and can be redeemed for travel statement credits to reimburse the cost of your travel purchases. This is the standard redemption rate for most travel credit cards.
Capital One has added 1:1 transfer partners and even has airline lounges. But, the airlines might not work well for you and only a few are 1:1 transfer partners.
Check out our post on everything you need to know about Capital One transfer partners to learn more.
Why Other Redemption Programs Can Be Better
If you also want to have the option of transferring your miles to other airline and hotel loyalty programs including United, Southwest Airlines, British Airways Avios, Hyatt, or Marriott on a 1:1 basis, you might also consider the Chase Sapphire Preferred® Card.
The Chase Sapphire Preferred review includes showing how it is a travel card that has 1:1 point transfers and a 25% point redemption bonus when using the Chase Ultimate Rewards portal. It has a $95 annual fee and no foreign transaction fee, similar to the Venture card.
The Venture Card’s primary competitor is the Chase Sapphire Preferred. You can see our detailed comparison of the Chase Sapphire Preferred vs Capital One Venture Rewards credit card to learn more.
Additional Ways to Redeem Miles
Cardholders can also redeem their miles to shop online with PayPal. Cardholders can use rewards earned with select cards on purchases at eligible online retailers. To use this benefit, simply checkout using PayPal Pay with Rewards after linking your eligible Capital One card to your PayPal account.
You can also use your Capital One Venture Rewards miles at Amazon.com. Similar to PayPal, you’ll need to link your eligible Capital One card to your Amazon account. When you go to checkout, you should have the option to pay with rewards.
75,000 bonus miles: Capital One Venture Rewards Credit Card
Capital One Venture Additional Benefits
The Capital One Venture Rewards Credit Card is a Visa Signature product and comes with the standard Visa Signature benefits which include:
- Secondary rental car collision damage coverage
- Complimentary upgrades and savings at select hotels, airlines, and rental car agencies
- 24/7 Visa Concierge Service
- Shopping discounts at select in-store and online merchants
- Automatic extended warranty for items purchased with your Venture card
Of course, all of these Capital One Venture benefits are in addition to the fact that new Venture cards are made of metal. In the ultra-competitive credit card arena, high-end cards are now being made out of metal. They still work the same as the classic plastic credit cards you still might carry, but, this metal card can be a great way to turn some heads your way.
Related: Best Metal Credit Cards
Is The Capital One Venture Rewards Credit Card Worth $95 A Year?
Like similar travel credit cards, the Capital One Venture Rewards Credit Card has a $95 annual fee. You will never pay a foreign transaction fee. Plus, there’s no additional fee for adding an authorized user.
Is the Capital One Venture Rewards card worth its $95 annual fee?
You have to be the judge of that as it depends on how you want to earn and redeem your miles.
Your Credit History Also Matters
It might also depend on your credit history.
You need a good to excellent credit score (700+) on the Capital One Venture to maximize your approval odds. But Capital One is more lenient in approving credit card applications if you regularly apply for cards.
To help make your decision a little easier, we will look at the pros and cons of the Capital One Venture Credit Card reviews.
Pros of Capital One Venture Credit Card
- Earn at least 2x miles per $1 on purchases, with no limit on how much you can earn
- 5x miles on hotels and rental cars booked through Capital One Travel
- You can transfer miles to leading travel programs
- The redemption minimum is 2,500 miles ($25) for a travel purchase
- Rewards don’t expire
Cons
- No mile redemption bonuses
- Limited airline transfer partners
Related: The Best Credit Cards for Online Shopping
Capital One Venture Rewards Credit Card Review
This Capital One Venture Rewards Credit Card review hopefully shows how this is a solid travel rewards card. It gives you the maximum number of miles on each purchase. If you want an airline miles credit card that makes it easy to earn or redeem miles, this can be a good option. Simplicity is a key advantage of this card.
75,000 bonus miles: Capital One Venture Rewards Credit Card
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Capital One Venture Rewards Credit Card Review: Capital One Venture Credit Card and Transferable Miles
If you’re in the market for one of the best travel cards, there’s one major decision that will help narrow down your choices: do you want to redeem your miles as a statement credit, or transfer them to a loyalty program? The answer depends on how you earn miles and how you travel.
In this article, we’ll compare the value of miles earned on the Venture Card with the value of the transferable miles offered by some other travel rewards credit cards.
75,000 bonus miles: Capital One Venture Rewards Credit Card
How Do the Capital One Venture Card Benefits Work?
The Capital One Venture Card earns 2x miles on all purchases. However, earn 5x miles on hotels and rental cars booked through Capital One Travel.
You now have three options to redeem Capital One miles for award travel:
- Transfer miles to travel partners
- Redeem for travel statement credits
- Book upcoming travel on the Capital One travel portal
Your miles are worth 1 cent each for travel statement credits and the travel portal.
Enjoy a one-time bonus of 75,000 miles once you spend $4,000 on purchases within 3 months from account opening, equal to $750 in travel, with the Capital One Venture Rewards Credit Card.
The redemption value for mile transfers is more open-ended as each airline values miles differently. What you can expect is that most airline partners have a 2 Capital One miles to 1.5 air miles transfer ratio. For instance, transferring 50,000 miles means you will most likely have 37,500 air miles. Because of this, Capital One shows the actual conversion amount before you start the transfer.
However, there are a few airlines that are 1:1 point transfers. It can make sense to transfer miles when you can get more than 1 cent of value per mile. It can also make sense when you don’t want to pay cash for a ticket or hotel stay.
Capital One Travel Transfer Partners
Here is the current list of Capital One airline transfer partners:
- Aeromexico (1:1 ratio)
- Aeroplan (Air Canada) (1:1 ratio)
- Air France/KLM (1:1 ratio)
- Avianca (1:1 ratio)
- British Airways (1:1 ratio)
- Cathay Pacific (1:1 ratio)
- Emirates (1:1 ratio)
- Etihad (1:1 ratio)
- EVA Air (2:1.5 ratio)
- Finnair (1:1 ratio)
- Qantas (1:1 ratio)
- Singapore Airlines (1:1 ratio)
- TAP Air Portugal (1:1 ratio)
- Turkish Airlines (1:1 ratio)
Capital One also has ALL Accor (2:1 ratio), Choice Privileges (1:1 ratio), and Wyndham Rewards (1:1 ratio) as hotel transfer partners.
Related: The Best Credit Cards For International Travel In 2023
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Credit Cards with Transferable Rewards
The Capital One Venture Rewards Credit Card is not the only card that lets you transfer your miles to another points or miles program. The Chase Sapphire Preferred® Card, American Express® Gold Card, and Citi Premier® Card all offer extra rewards on travel purchases, carry similar annual fees, and let you transfer your points to a partner airline, hotel, and retail loyalty program.
You’ll usually get the best value out of transferring your rewards to an airline transfer partner, but your exact redemption rate will depend on how good of a deal you find on an award flight. To understand how to maximize your rewards on an award flight, let’s take a closer look at each of those three cards.
Also, be sure to note how long it takes to transfer Capital One miles or any other mile transfers.
Chase Sapphire Preferred Card
You can use your Preferred rewards to book travel through Ultimate Rewards (for 1 cent each) or you can transfer them at a 1:1 ratio to one of the card’s airline and hotel transfer partners, including Air France/KLM Flying Blue, British Airways, United Airlines, Hyatt, and Marriott Bonvoy.
The Chase Sapphire Preferred, one of the best Chase credit cards, earns unlimited:
- 5x points on travel purchased through Chase Ultimate Rewards® (excluding hotel purchases that qualify for the $50 Anniversary Hotel Credit)
- 3x points on dining (including eligible delivery services, takeout, and dining out)
- 3x points on online grocery purchases (excluding Target®, Walmart®, and wholesale clubs)
- Also 3x points on select streaming services
- 2x points on all other travel purchases
- 1x point per $1 spent on all non-bonus purchases
There is a $50 annual Ultimate Rewards Hotel Credit. It comes in the form of a statement credit that will automatically be applied to your account when your card is used for hotel accommodation purchases made through the Ultimate Rewards program, up to an annual maximum accumulation of $50.
Plus, on each account anniversary, you’ll earn bonus points equal to 10% of your total purchases made the previous year. So, if you spend $25,000 on purchases, you’ll get 2,500 bonus points.
The Chase Sapphire Preferred benefits and perks don’t stop at being able to transfer points. The card also comes with insurance protection, access to Chase exclusive events, and no foreign transaction fees.
New Chase Sapphire Preferred® Card cardholders can earn 60,000 bonus points after spending $4,000 on purchases in the first 3 months from account opening. That’s $750 when redeemed through Chase Ultimate Rewards®. Member FDIC
American Express Gold Card
One of the best American Express cards, the American Express® Gold Card earns 4X Membership Rewards® Points at Restaurants, plus takeout and delivery in the U.S., and earns 4X Membership Rewards® Points at U.S. supermarkets (on up to $25,000 per calendar year in purchases, then 1X). Plus, earn 3X Membership Rewards® Points on flights booked directly with airlines or on amextravel.com.
Plus, you can redeem your American Express points for statement credits or gift cards (at 1 cent each) or transfer them to an airline, hotel, or retail partner—usually at a 1:1 ratio.
Another perk is the ability to earn up to $10 in statement credits on a monthly basis when you use your Gold Card to pay at the following dining establishments (enrollment is required):
- Grubhub
- The Cheesecake Factory
- Goldbelly
- Wine.com
- Milk Bar
- Shake Shack (only at participating locations)
This perk can save you up to $120 annually.
With all of the benefits, the annual fee of $250 (See Rates & Fees) can be offset, and there are no foreign transaction fees.
New American Express® Gold Card cardholders can earn 60,000 Membership Rewards points after spending $4,000 on eligible purchases within the first 6 months. Also, Rose Gold is back! Cardholders can choose between Gold or Rose Gold. Terms apply.
Citi Premier Card
The information for the Citi Premier® Card has been collected independently by Johnny Jet. The card details on this page have not been reviewed or provided by the card issuer.
The Citi Premier® Card earns 3x points on air travel, hotels, restaurants, gas stations, and supermarkets, and 1x points on all other purchases. This card lets you transfer your points to their airline or retail partners. Cardholders also get an annual $100 hotel benefit for single stays of $500 or more (excluding taxes and fees) purchased through thankyou.com.
New Citi Premier® Card cardmembers can earn 60,000 bonus ThankYou® Points after spending $4,000 in purchases within the first 3 months of account opening. This bonus is redeemable for $600 in gift cards or travel rewards when redeemed at thankyou.com.
Plus, for a limited time, earn a total of 10 ThankYou® Points per $1 spent on hotel, car rentals, and attractions (excluding air travel) booked on the Citi Travel℠ portal through June 30, 2024.
There are no foreign transaction fees, but there is a $95 annual fee.
If this sounds like a good choice for you, check out the CardMatch™ tool, which is a free resource for finding personalized offers that best serve you. It can help you determine if the Citi Premier is a card you can get. Additionally, you may be offered a higher targeted signup bonus that isn’t available to the general public.
Capital One Venture Rewards Credit Card Review: How to Redeem Your Miles
With the Venture Card, you’re capped out at a maximum redemption rate of 2 cents per dollar, or 2%. However, with transferable miles, that math gets a little trickier.
You’ll generally get the best value out of transferable miles by transferring them to an airline partner. Maximizing your value is then determining which airline offers the best award flight for your route.
To give you a few examples, let’s look at an airline that partners with Chase, AMEX, and Citi: Singapore Airlines.
Singapore Airlines is known for offering excellent award value on First Class international flights and has a straightforward awards chart. Let’s say we want to fly round-trip on Singapore Airlines between San Francisco (SFO) and Bangkok (BKK). How much would that cost in miles?
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I’ve found a flight that fits my schedule, and it will cost either $785 (plus taxes and fees) or, according to the awards chart, 76,000 miles.
How much spending would it take to save up for that flight? Here’s the math:
Capital One Venture Card: $39,250
You would have to book this flight through Singapore and redeem your Venture miles for a statement credit. At a 2% rewards rate, you would need to spend $39,250 to be able to redeem 78500 miles for a statement credit toward that round-trip ticket—not including taxes and fees.
Chase Sapphire Preferred: $38,000
Let’s take a closer look at this popular card. For instance, let’s say you only used the Chase Sapphire Preferred for its 2x bonus categories. You then transferred your points to Singapore Krisflyer and booked the flight online with points. You would need to spend $38,000 to earn the 76,000 points for this flight. That comes to a redemption rate of 2.1%.
American Express Gold Card: $37,250
This is a little trickier because the American Express Gold Card has a few bonus spending categories. There are 4x points at restaurants and U.S. supermarkets. Additionally, you can earn 3x points on flights bought directly from an airline. For instance, let’s say you charge one $500 flight to your card (for 1,500 points). In that case, you would need to spend $37,250 to reach 76,000 points, for a redemption rate of 2.1%.
Citi ThankYou Premier: $37,250
Like with the AMEX Gold, your overall redemption rate with the ThankYou Premier depends on how much of your spending falls into the card’s bonus categories. Suppose you spend $500 in the travel category (for 3x points, coming to 1,500 points). You also come up with the rest of your points by making charges in the card’s 2x spending categories. The math is then the same as with the AMEX Gold. You’d have to spend $37,250, for a redemption rate of 2.1%.
The math above shows that in the Capital One Venture Card vs transferable points debate, the other cards are only slightly cheaper for an economy flight. BUT, transferable points are more valuable when you’re looking to redeem your miles for a business or first-class flight. That’s because those flights generally cost $5,000 – $15,000.
It would take a considerable amount of fixed value points to make those redemptions. However, miles in an airline program will stretch much farther which really makes your transferable points more valuable.
Capital One Venture Card vs Transferable Miles
In this example, the transferable miles from Chase, AMEX, and Citi are only slightly more valuable. But they are still close to the statement credit redemption option from the Capital One Venture Rewards Credit Card. Those numbers can still fluctuate though.
However, depending on how well you take advantage of each card’s bonus spending categories, what kind of deals you can find on award flights, and whether or not you take advantage of your card’s welcome bonus, these may change.
If you’re deciding between signing up for the Capital One Venture Card vs transferable miles credit cards, there are a few main factors to look at. Will you be able to earn their welcome bonuses? Will you be able to take full advantage of their bonus spending categories? Which transfer partner offers the best award flight for your trip?
In summary, ask yourself these questions and analyze your spending. This will help you make the right choice.
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Is the Capital One Venture Credit Card the Best Credit Card for Hotels?
Hotel stays are a big part of travel, and they can really add up, especially for those who travel often outside of business travel rewards credit cards. Loyalty programs aside, it makes sense to find a credit card that gets you the most bang for your buck, especially when you’re paying for hotel stays. That’s where the Capital One Venture Rewards Credit Card comes in.
Benefits of the Capital One Venture Credit Card For Hotels
First of all, let’s break down the Capital One Venture Rewards Credit Card for hotel purchases.
The Capital One Venture Rewards Credit Card already offers 2x miles per dollar spent on all purchases. However, earn 5x miles on hotels and rental cars booked through Capital One Travel.
Each mile equals 1 cent when redeemed for a statement credit on just about any and all travel-related purchases. This can range from Airbnb bookings to flights to river cruises, which works out to a 2% reward rate.
The Capital One VentureOne Rewards Credit Card earns unlimited 1.25x miles per dollar spent, totaling a 1.25% rate. Plus, cardholders can transfer miles to leading travel loyalty programs, including Capital One travel partners.
New Capital One VentureOne Rewards Credit Card cardholders can earn 20,000 bonus miles after spending $500 on purchases within 3 months from account opening, equal to $200 in travel.
It’s easy to redeem the miles you accumulate. Miles can be used your miles to cover travel purchases.
On top of that, the sign-up bonuses are great.
Capital One makes it easy to figure out which card will net you the most miles. An interactive sliding scale explains that if you spend $1,056 or more per month, you’ll get more rewards value annually with Venture Rewards than with the VentureOne.
If you aren’t too convinced though, below are a few options that might be more relevant to you.
Marriott Bonvoy Brilliant American Express Card
The Marriott Bonvoy Brilliant® American Express® Card is a popular choice for travelers.
Cardholders earn 6 Marriott Bonvoy points for each dollar of eligible purchases at hotels participating in the Marriott Bonvoy program, 3 points at restaurants worldwide, 3 points on flights booked directly with airlines, and 2 points on all other eligible purchases.
Each card renewal year, get up to $300 in statement credits per calendar year (up to $25 per month) for eligible purchases at restaurants worldwide.
The number of points required to book a room depends on the property and season. They can range from 7,500 to 85,000 and can be used at over 7,000 locations. Cardholders can redeem points for flights or car rentals. Or, they can transfer points for rewards with over 40 airline partners.
You do have to stay at Marriott brand hotels (check out the best Marriott credit cards if you are married to Marriott) in order to reap many of the benefits and earn the most points. This may make it a more suitable card for those who prefer to remain loyal to a single family of hotels.
Perks
The Marriott Bonvoy Brilliant American Express Card is one of the most valuable options. Other featured benefits include 1 Free Night Award (redemption level at or under 85,000 points) annually after your card renewal month at participating Marriott Bonvoy properties (some hotels have resort fees), up to $100 property credit for qualifying charges at The Ritz-Carlton® or St. Regis® when you book direct using a special rate for a two-night minimum stay using your Card, and complimentary Priority Pass Select airport lounge access.
Additionally, cardholders can enjoy a fee credit for TSA PreCheck or Global Entry, up to $800 in cellphone protection, and 25 Elite Night Credits toward the next level of Marriott Bonvoy Elite status (terms apply).
Marriott Bonvoy Platinum Elite members earn 50% more points on eligible purchases at participating hotels for each U.S. dollar (or the currency equivalent) that is incurred and paid for by the member.
Each calendar year after spending $60,000 on eligible purchases, Card Members are eligible to select an Earned Choice Award benefit. You can only earn one Earned Choice Award per calendar year. See https://www.choice-benefit.marriott.com/brilliant for Award options.
Welcome Bonus
New LTO! New Marriott Bonvoy Brilliant® American Express® Card cardholders earn two 85K Free Night Awards after spending $6,000 in purchases on the Card in their first 6 months. Each award can be used for one night (redemption level at or under 85,000 Marriott Bonvoy points) at hotels participating in Marriott Bonvoy. Card Members could enjoy a value of up to $1,200 when redeeming each reward. Certain hotels have resort fees. Offer ends 11/1/2023.
The annual fee is $650 (See Rates & Fees).
Marriott Bonvoy Boundless Credit Card
The Marriott Bonvoy Boundless® Credit Card also has a great sign-up bonus. New Marriott Bonvoy Boundless® Credit Card cardholders can earn 3 Free Night Awards (each night valued up to 50,000 points) after qualifying purchases.
You also get one free night (up to 35,000 points) every year after your account anniversary.
Cardmembers can earn up to 17x total Bonvoy points per $1 spent at over 7,000 hotels participating in Marriott Bonvoy® with the Marriott Bonvoy Boundless® Card.
You can also earn 3x Bonvoy points per $1 on the first $6,000 spent in combined purchases each year on grocery stores, gas stations, and dining.
This card also earns 2x points per $1 spent on everything else. Plus, you get 15 elite night credits annually.
But like the Bonvoy Brilliant card, award stays can only be redeemed at certain hotels, which limits options for those not committed to one brand.
Chase Sapphire Preferred Card
The Chase Sapphire Preferred® Card is another viable option. Chase partners with IHG, Marriott, and Hyatt brand hotels. That means you can use your points to get more out of the Chase Ultimate Rewards portal.
Rewards include earning 5x points on travel purchased through Chase Ultimate Rewards®, 3x points on dining, and 2x points on all other travel purchases, plus more. However, if you use the Chase Ultimate Rewards portal to book airfare, hotels, car rentals, and cruises, points are worth 25% more. This works out to a pretty good deal.
Is the Capital One Venture Credit Card For Hotel Purchases the Best Option?
For travelers looking for the best hotel credit card offers who also want the widest selection of hotels to choose from and the most flexible options, The Capital One Venture Cards is likely the best for flexibility. Otherwise, if you’re loyal to a hotel, choose that hotel’s credit card or a credit card that partners with them.
Capital One Venture Rewards Credit Card Review
One of my favorite cards to use for travel is the Capital One Venture Rewards Credit Card.
Enjoy a one-time bonus of 75,000 miles once you spend $4,000 on purchases within 3 months from account opening, equal to $750 in travel, with the Capital One Venture Rewards Credit Card.
All purchases earn 2x miles per dollar spent. However, earn 5x miles on hotels and rental cars booked through Capital One Travel.
One of the reasons this card is so popular is that you can transfer miles to several travel partners, making your miles even more valuable. There are no blackout dates and your miles won’t expire, as long as you have your account open and active. There’s also no limit on how many miles you can earn.
This flexible rewards card also comes with a $100 credit to apply towards your application fee for Global Entry or TSA Pre✓®. You won’t need to worry about foreign transaction fees with the Capital One Venture Rewards Credit Card. However, there is a $95 annual fee.
75,000 bonus miles: Capital One Venture Rewards Credit Card
Related Posts:
- Capital One Venture vs Chase Sapphire Preferred
- Capital One Venture Credit Score Needed
- You Can Now Get TSA Precheck with the Capital One Venture
For rates and fees of The American Express® Gold Card, please click here.
For rates and fees of the Marriott Bonvoy Brilliant® American Express® Card, please click here.
How do I get the credit for the $100 Global entry fee? I Can’t find that on their website. I’ve had the Capital One Venture card for a few years now and applied for Global Entry On December 4, 2019. The $100 was immediately applied on my card; however, according to the messages I got from customs they were backed up for 6 months for scheduling interviews, Now due to COVID they have stopped issuing all together! I tried calling Capital One customer service but cant get an actual person. Thanks for helping!
Within two billing cycles, Capital One will reimburse you for the application fee—up to $100—when you use your Venture card. Both services are valid for 5 years, and you’ll receive one statement credit per account every 4 years.
Nice review, but nobody seems to mention the 5x rate on booking hotels and cars through the capital one travel portal, which is now offered through venture as well as spark, and how it affects the overall benefits of the card.
I’m trying to assess whether that or trying to maintain marriott status will work better for me.
That is a great benefit of the Capital One Venture!
I’ve read in multiple spots the card is no longer metal super bummed to hear this :-(